Membrane Form-Finding

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 12, 2016 at 11:39pm

Accurate membrane form finding means NOTHING since in real-life this particular AEC field is in the hands of fellas the likes of BirdAir etc etc. They do the "accurate" part with regard the fabric and if you can't resolve the details ... well ... they do that as well. For Europe contact my good friend Peter Stevens. (BirdAir).

In general: PRIOR designing ANYTHING (at all) you must formulate some kind of collaboration with a specialized manufacturer. Problem is that ... er ... if they don't know you they don't give much attention (this is a rather "closed" AEC sector).

On the other hand if your membrane is bespoke designing the components (anchor plates, masts, tensioners etc etc) and/or using bespoke ones available in the market (not many around. mind)... well ... this IS the core of the matter. Rhino is NOT suitable for that kind of stuff by any means.

Kangaroo 1/2 is the way to go when inside GH. Other apps especially the "pro" ones are very expensive. BirdAir has the best software for that matter but is mostly an internal product available as well only for few "strategic" partners as they call Architects who can design that kind of stuff.

Other than that have some fun:

Tensile Membranes test3 - Grasshopper

And this ... well ...is about NOT doing it:

Need help about using Kangaroo for form finding

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 12, 2016 at 11:58pm

BTW: In Italy, there's some other companies around as well ... but BirdAir owns the world on that matter (by a million miles). Accidentally their engineering support center for south Europe is sited in Italy (but there's ...some ... "issues" if you allow them to design the thing [especially the details] for you).

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 12:09am

BTW: Here's a small example about NOT allowing BirdAir's support center to do the job for you:

Shown a very old project: a rather small building in Greece (I never do business in Greece ... with a very few rare exceptions)

Attachments:

• 3d_163_MASTER-Default-000.pdf, 3.9 MB

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 12:12am

And this er ... hmm ... atrocity was their first reply (ugly as a sin):

Attachments:

• 09-05 Tavola attacco ring-Model-000.pdf, 2.4 MB

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 1:56am

After searching ancient stuff in ancient workstations found what I've send them (3 options) on the first place.

Attachments:

• 3d_163_roofV2-Default-001.pdf, 2.2 MB

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 2:02am

And the "isolated" thingy as well.

BTW: The other 3dPDF is related with an abandoned option.

Attachments:

• 3d_163_roofV2-Default-002.pdf, 467 KB
• 163_roof_shaders-membrane_set-000.pdf, 1.3 MB

Permalink Reply by Yogi on March 13, 2016 at 2:16am

hi peter, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I will research about BirdAir and Tensile Membrane.

Yes, specialised software as ix or easy are super expensive...the budget for this project is far below to even get one of them.

I'm an Italian Architect and collaboration with an engineers who is willing to design the details on the structure. I do have already a manufacturer partner. 

My task is it to form find the membrane and give the approx. acting forces in the supports to the engineer. Well if a software package is able to help me with an approx. detailing already, this would be perfect. 

This incorporates approx. material specifications and occurrent external forces. 

What about Rhino Membrane?

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 2:43am

All PDF attached are 3d: use the latest (and "greatest") Adobe Reader to exploit them. DO NOT open these with any other way.

Other than that:

1. I don't like Rhino Membrane at all.

2. If Massimo (remind me to kill him but give him my regards anyway) is still around in BirdAir Italy ... talk with him.

3. Hope that you understand that designing the "details" means some decent MCAD app + FEA + this + that. "Fusing" this with some abstract graphic editor like GH ... is ... er ... impossible (in real-life, you know, he he ). Generative Components on the other hand may qualify but requires a lot of time in order to fully master it (approx 2-4 years).

4. FormFinder ... well ... that's utterly Academic but on the other hand ... (good luck).

http://www.formfinder.at/main/software/team/

5. http://tecno.upc.edu/cotens/software.htm

6. This is the second best (after the BirdAir internal stuff) but costs an arm and a leg

http://www.ndnsoftware.com/

7. This is a !%$!%$ in the !%$%!$:

http://www.sofistik.com/no_cache/loesungen/fem/leichte-tragwerke/

My realistic (low cost) advise:

use K1/2 (especially if you are after "parametric" exploitation(s)) ... and then diversify tasks: stuff for the structural department, stuff for whom claims that he can(?) design the "details" ... whilst be in a constant contact with the membrane provider (and in fact: the contractor for doing the real thing as well)

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 4:03am

Plan B:

Use K1/2 > get something/whatever abstract > then call Massimo at BirdAir Italy > skip the details > assign the whole thingy to BirdAir > Karma  (required) >  ... > job done(?).

Estimate the cost around 250E to 350E /m2 (for a "basic" result without SS 306/316 components and the likes, but with some powder coating applied properly to all metal parts)

Permalink Reply by Yogi on March 13, 2016 at 7:29am

thanks peter,

it seems you went through the steps already :D

yes ndn software would be a good solution, but I guess this project I have to complete with a low budget approach. the tent is quite simple, basically a circus tent with one high point and the lower piles vary a bit in height. and furthermore it is only a summer tent, means it stays only for the season.

I do have rhinomembrane already available, that's why I have been asking.
I have got experience with K1/2.

to bring Massimo and his team on board or any other specialized engineer I don't see it necessary for this work, cause as I sad there is already an engineer handling the details (whatever he will make). My part is it to distribute the different information to the collaborators. approx upcoming forces at the supports for the engineer (as the form is simple, he will manage something). patterning for the manufacturer. plans for the client etc.. I'm not the official project leader, my task is the data management.
-so I kind of also have to use a software with FEM which allows parameter input and approx. realistic output values.

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on March 13, 2016 at 10:25am

Well .. with 26 large scale membrane projects done insofar ... well ... I think that I know these things inside-out he, he.

To be honest Massimo and Company would be interested ONLY if you could sign an agreement contract that assigns the job to them (where job: deliver the membrane ready for use on-site + warranties + ...). Usually they charge extra for their extraordinary team of acrobats who rig the thing on-site (~ 300E per person per day).

They NEVER get involved solely as design engineers (i.e. on consultancy basis) ... because BirdAir owns the word > therefor > ANY serious project worldwide is made by them (in fact by the parent company TAIYO KOGYO corporation). Kinda like combining Mercedes, BMW and Audi with regard luxury saloons.

So for anyone out there interested on that matter there's only 2 choices:

(a) sign some agreement + closely collaborate with them + design the project completely in the practice and then call them to make it on site.

(b) sign some agreement +  provide some "sketches" and ask them to fill the gaps.